100: Pitch Deck Storytelling for Hardware Funding

Product Startup
Episode 100: Pitch Deck Storytelling for Hardware Funding
With Donna Griffit, Corporate Storyteller

00:00 | Kevin Mako (KM): Hello product innovators. Today, we learn how to craft the perfect hardware investor pitch from a corporate pitch writer that has helped her clients raise a total of over 1.2 billion dollars.

00:12 | Voice-over: You’re listening to the Product Startup podcast. The show that helps bring your product idea to life, by chatting with successful inventors, product developers, manufacturers, and hardware industry professionals. Our goal here is to get to the bottom of what makes a product successful, from initial idea to getting your product on store shelves. We’re taking you step by step to build a functional product and scale your product business. Hosted by Kevin Mako, one of North America’s leading experts on hardware development for small product businesses. Now, on to the show.

00:48 | KM: Welcome back, everyone. Today, I’m very excited to introduce Donna Griffit to the show. Donna helps write pitches for hardware, startups, and small manufacturing companies to raise millions of dollars in funding. Before working with small product businesses, she used to do corporate pitch investment decks for Samsung, Cisco, Microsoft, Google, Visa, and more. Today, Donna is going to share some valuable knowledge on how inventors, startups, and small manufacturers should think about how to write a perfect investor pitch through storytelling, and what specific story model to use to land those big bucks. Now, on to the episode. Hey Donna, welcome to the show.

01:19 | Donna Griffit (DG): Hey, thanks so much for having me, Kevin.

01:22 | KM: Really appreciate you being on the show today to talk about pitch decks and how to really tell your best story when you’re raising money. Whether it’s at the very beginning of the process if you’re just pitching to friends and family, all the way up to raising your first series A round for ten million dollars and north, it all comes down to telling an incredible story, it all comes down to the pitch, and a lot of that revolves around the pitch deck, your messaging and all that. So who better to come on the show than yourself? You’ve worked with all these major companies, a lot of small startups, a lot of really big success stories as well. Over a billion dollars you’ve worked with companies in helping to raise. That’s incredible. First and foremost, I want to talk about the buzz in the industry right now, because it seems like everywhere you turn, people are talking about investments. There’s more money circulating right now in the market than ever before.

02:05 | DG: Yeah. I think it’s attributed to the fact that covid initially had a slowdown, and then suddenly there was this surge of money that needed to get out there and people jumping on the bandwagon. And we’re seeing mega-rounds, and we’re seeing SPACs and IPOs, and it just seems like, wow, money’s being thrown everywhere. And I also think that there have been massive opportunities opened up because of remote presenting. I mean Sand Hill Road in Silicon Valley wouldn’t look at someone ten miles away from their office before the covid, now it’s fair game for everyone, but that comes with the price. And that means you need to up your game. You need to up your story. You need to be ready to tell it in a powerful, compelling way on the spot.

02:52 | KM: Right. Because you never know when these deals are going to come out, and I’ve seen and heard many deals that happen, like the reason the elevator pitch slogan came up is because that’s is a real thing that would happen. And now more than ever, these meetings are happening quickly, they’re happening by surprise, investors are circulating all over. I heard one stat, there’s more money right now just in American households in savings than there ever has been before…

03:16 | DG: Wow!

03:16 | KM: … in history, on average.

03:18 | DG: I guess that happens when you stop eating out and going on trips, you get to save some money.

03:23 | KM: That’s right. Obviously, there have been some situations that aren’t great and others that are good, but the point is you’re going for those who have money and are looking to invest in the next thing. They don’t want to sit with cash because cash is a depreciating asset. They want to invest in something that is going to grow their money and work for them. So right now, more than ever before, that’s a big priority. So we want to get down to understanding the value of the story. And first and foremost, can you just describe why even in something like a pitch deck for something like a hardware product, which is all about specs and engineering, why is the story so important?

03:59 | DG: Oh, but it’s so much more than specs in engineering. I mean, take medical devices for example, which I absolutely love working on, my very first startup client when I pivoted from working with Fortune 500 companies was a medical device, a very prominent cardiothoracic surgeon, who I was hired to work on his speeches, asked me to write his pitch decks. And he had two medical devices that were is incredibly life-saving and put him in front of an operating table three times a day he could save lives, put him in front of a PowerPoint and it was like he was dying. So not everybody has that core competency, but when I work with a medical device company, like a company called Ring Gone that I worked with recently that had developed a micronized chip inside a tiny ring that a child can wear, imagine like a gummy bracelet, but like a ring, that if heaven forbid, they’re abducted, they could just swipe, and it’ll automatically give audio and location, and it’s not so easy to pull off or throw away. So there is a tremendous value that you are bringing to the world with your hardware invention, and it doesn’t have to be life-saving.

05:07 | DG: It can also be something like I’m working with a company called High Gear that is turning dumb workout equipment into smart, connected with sensors, and it’s for a fraction of what a Peloton would cost. You can have a fully tracked, fully sensed workout in your home. So innovation is everywhere and it’s so exciting to me to see these things. So what I always do first is look for the origin story. What did you recognize that was missing in the world that you could bring value towards before you went on this crazy journey called a startup? And then show that your story, whether it happened to you, to a friend, to someone you care about is something that’s shared throughout many industries, and it’s a very lucrative market as well. So when you start with that story of the need, of the true gaping wound, the true, oh my gosh, I can’t believe that nobody’s thought of this, yet moment and show that you can bring undeniable value, that’s where storytelling will be your magic.

06:15 | KM: Talk about undeniable value because I love that expression and that’s a big part in a pitch deck. Explain a bit further what that means and why a startup should be thinking about this when they’re putting their messaging into their presentations?

6:30 | DG: So let’s look at the last year and a half, it has been quite a wild ride. And the companies that I’ve seen truly succeeding and managing to get the funding that we were just talking about are the companies that were able to pivot their product and pivot their story fast. So for me, for example, when covid hit, immediately on March 14, 2020, I’ll never forget it. E-mails of clients canceling, oh, I can’t pay for the work you already did, and it was such déjà vu for me back to two thousand and eight. And I pulled out my two thousand and eight playbooks from the attic, where it was cobwebby and dusty. And I said, okay, what did I do then? What should I have done then? How can I use that knowledge? And what I realized was to find the need, find the value you can bring to people now.

07:18 | DG: And there were two things I saw. One, my clients were freaking out because there wasn’t money. Investors were like, okay, we’ll talk to you after things get clear, obviously. So freaking out about raising funding in uncertain times. So I overnight created a workshop called fundraising during uncertain times. And I started spreading it out there, giving it for free, bringing value and that brought me incredible visibility and business. And on the flip side, I’m like, okay, let’s look at these companies that are going to be working from home, the bigger corporations. People can’t present on a good day face-to-face like most people are not good presenters over Zoom. Oh my God, just forget about it. So they’re going to need to have better presenters. So I took out an old workshop of mine that I had done back before we had video conferencing, back in the days we called it the bridge, and I reworked it and repurposed it for the Zoom era on how to really create a story and be able to present it and all the tips for working for Zoom, and I started marketing that to big organizations. And after a few weeks, when people kind of realized, we’re in this for the long haul, and we have to bring value to people sitting at home, it went off like hotcakes. So, it’s being willing to put yourself out there, being willing to say, I have unique assets that I can bring to the table, and here’s how it can meet your needs right now.

08:42 | KM: It sounds like it’s key to put some urgency and some knowledge of the local market. What’s going on? Whether it’s individualized to your specific market or whether it’s something that’s happening in the broader economic field or the world, or whatever else, if you can create relevance of time then that creates, I guess, that urgency around the investor feeling like they need to invest now as opposed to waiting a year or two to see what may or may not happen.

09:09 | DG: So, urgency is not something that happens, urgency is something that you create. So investors suffer from, a chronic, FOMO, fear of missing out. So nobody wants to be the one that missed out on some great deal. So you have to show them why you are that next great deal now, and also five years from now that they don’t want to be kicking themselves. So you have to create that sense of urgency. And what I usually do with companies is identify three major trends happening now that show that you are a timely investment. The first trend is usually around behavior, something shifting. People are shopping more online, people are going out less, people are at home working out more, whatever it might be that we’ve seen a shift. Another big one is always millennial behavior because they’re weird. Sorry. Excuse me, millennials, you all are wonderful, it’s like they have these certain things. And as we see the trends and then as Gen Z comes in as a major buying force or a major consuming force, what are the things that they expect? So in terms of sustainability that’s big. In terms of corporate responsibility that’s been big, I’ve seen much more in that area.

10:24 | DG: The second one I look for is something regulatory. Is something about to change in the law? Will there have to be sensors in a factory that works on robotics in order to prove safety is key? And yes, you have a sensor like that and the regulation is coming down the pipes in six months, you better get on that. The third one is kind of fun and sneaky way. Take a look in your space at the heat in your space, how many competitors or completitors as I call it, have gotten major funding or have been acquired, either your direct competitors or around your space? And if you can show investors, listen, there’s a lot of money being poured into this space, we’re next. So that’s going to be a win as well. It’s also showing your credibility. You’ve shown that you really know your market, but also urgency, you don’t want to miss this boat.

11:24 | KM: That’s really great. I mean, three different verticals that all push back on urgency, and I can understand how that can tell a powerful story. And really, I think one of the big fallacies when I look at our clients that are raising money for their hardware startup or whatnot, is they assume that the investor is a highly educated person in their field. Now, investors generally, yes, they are very sophisticated, but they don’t have the time to fully understand your product like you do. So, although they’re sophisticated in finance, they may not necessarily be sophisticated in more specific…

11:57 | DG: Well, and they probably know a lot about your technology, but they don’t really care about the circuit boards and the bits and the bytes and the architecture and everything, they just care that it works. Once they do due diligence, they’ll dive much deeper into your technology, they’ll send an expert. But, honestly, don’t over-detail the technology. Everybody, especially hardware startups, they are super in love with their technology, and rightfully so, it’s amazing. Your baby is beautiful, but you don’t have to over-detail, you want them to understand first why your audience needs it? Why they’re willing to pay a lot of money for it? What is it replacing now? What service or product is it replacing that they’re going to pivot over to working using you?

12:41 | KM: And I think that really comes back around to this message of thinking about your pitch as a story, and really defining it as a storybook, as opposed to focusing on the features or the numbers or whatever else, and that’s very common with especially hardware startups. So if you can look at these bigger picture things. Really put yourself in the investor’s shoes or in a potential customer’s shoes and paint that picture. And Donna, I know you’ve got a bunch of information on how to tell a great story. Can you go through that and how that relates to putting a pitch deck together so that we can get into kind of the details of what makes a story capture that investor and, as well, capture that relevance or that urgency?

13:22 | DG: I would love to. Alright, so just to set the stage on what storytelling is., Storytelling is an ancient art. It has been around for thousands of years, I’ve just repurposed and harnessed it to work for the business world in the tech world. But we’re talking Greek tragedies and Shakespeare and Chekhov and Lanier and all the greats and how they wrote. It’s in a very specific structure that is geared to work with our poor overworked, overtired brains, and how we take in information. People remember stories, they don’t remember facts and figures in bits and bytes, they remember stories. I still remember origin stories of startups that I worked with ten, twelve, thirteen years ago, because the stories are so compelling, and I probably repurposed the story a few times, but the essence is there because it’s something that’s a shared experience. So, a story is both resonance and a structure.

14:23 | DG: So, just like a house has a foundation and a frame before the walls and the roofing is put in, a pitch that has a structure should be seamless, just like a frame. I don’t look at the house and say, oh, really nice frame. But if it wasn’t there, it would all collapse. So there’s storytelling within storytelling, build the frame of the story, which we’ll talk about in a minute, and weave in as many stories as you can because it adds to your credibility, it’s memorable, and it’s also relatable, and people will be nodding as they listen to you. So the framework, like a four-act play, and it’s very much like the hero and the villain’s journey. So we start off with the pain, the need, or the opportunity, and that’s a great place to tell your origin story. How did you come up with this idea? What inspired it? What motivated the pain, as investors like to call it? So was it something that happened to you to a family member?

15:22 | DG: So I’ll tell an example, one of the hardware startups I worked with called CalmiGo, who are doing incredibly well they were put into CVS everywhere. It’s a little device that looks almost like an asthma inhaler, but it helps people with panic attacks, calm down and not have to take meds, which is incredible for kids and anyone that doesn’t want to be on anxiety pills. So the founder was extremely brave in sharing her own story and her mother, who was also a psychiatrist. And so being able to open up and be vulnerable about the fact that she had panic attacks and it left her immobilized. Now, when we worked on her initial story, she was like I’m afraid. What are investors going to think? And I said look, the fact that you were able to overcome this and because of that to be able to help people is extremely inspiring and extremely motivating. If someone’s going to say, oh, she’s suffered from anxiety, that’s their loss. And she has gone on to do it. So finding that story, your personal story, of someone you love, someone you care about, and then the world at large and how they need it, and how many people suffer from anxiety around the world. The RingOn, luckily she has not had it happened to her that a child was abducted, but just looking at the stories around her, and she’s from Houston. Funny, two women-led hardware companies, I love it. This is great. But just seeing the stats of the abductions, it’s just as a parent. Oh My God, I can’t even. I was crying. I was weeping as I was writing her pitch, I swear. I could not. I was sobbing. I really get into the stories sometimes. So start with the pain that motivates the story, and then back it up with stats that it’s a big problem. Act one.

17:12 | DG: Act to two, the hero! What is your product? What are you going to do? Explain it simply without all the geek speak, without all the underpinnings of how it works, just that it works. Take us on the user journey. How would somebody use this simply, so we just get it, and we could take it up and use it ourselves? And it’s easy with hardware because it’s usually something very demonstrable. If it’s portable, if it’s a sensor or a robot, or something that’s installed in the factory, that you can show us how customers are using it, even if it’s in a POC. Then act three is the business. Okay, the numbers, the market, the business model, how are you going to make money? And that’s where oftentimes hardware companies that have succeeded are able to lay the investors’ doubts aside because, yes, investors think, oh gosh, hardware, that’s a lot of upkeep, and who’s going to buy it? But I think with all the gadget era that we live in, we’ve managed to kind of resurf that. So it’s just being able to show that, yeah people are willing to buy it, and there are similar use cases and looking at competitors or completitors, or people who are similar to you and using that use case.

18:31 | DG: So for example, I’m working with an incredible company called Pashion, P-A-S-H-I-O-N, like passion and fashion, and it’s a convertible shoe. So it goes from being flat to being a high heel. I don’t know how much that speaks to you, Kevin, but boy, I was out running around in heels over Halloween and after a year and a half of comfort at home, I’m done with that, so it’s a huge pain literally and figuratively. And she here is showing how there’s been other companies like Allbirds and Rothys and ThirdLove and Spanx that are consumers, but they’ve done incredibly well, and they are VC-backed. So it’s about showing that this is going to be something that is going to revolutionize an industry. And finally, act four. This is the moving forward. This is the vision for the future. This is where do we go from here? Well, how is this going to be this game-changer? What’s your roadmap? What are your milestones? And how much do you need to fuel that first big milestone? And that’s it, that’s your four-act play. That is your pitch deck

19:43 | KM: That’s incredible because even just laying it out that way, it’s fairly simple. And I would encourage everybody when they’re thinking of their product, whether it’s in mature stages, scale stages, early stages, still in the idea phase, just write down your story in these four quick points. Identify and just think about your product. Obviously, you’ve been thinking about this project for ages, and you’ve probably been thinking about how much it can help people and how much maybe you can help yourself. If it’s something that is a pain point that you notice, or a pain point that other people have just write it down in these four pieces, right? Identify what the true pain is, or the opportunity, then how you’re going to solve it, the hero, the business potential, you don’t have to be a business expert to do it.

20:23 | KM: I love Donna, how you mentioned, just look at, not necessarily direct competitors, but what are alternative products that people are already using right now that validate that there’s a market that exists, and you will find that that’s probably a multi-billion dollar industry? No matter where you’re at, if you’re providing value in one way that’s unique, there’s probably a secondary method or something that people are already doing in that space. Then you’re simply looking at the vision for the future. How do you see this playing out? And I think this fourth, one’s really key as well because a lot of folks look at an investment opportunity, especially in hardware, and say, look, I need a hundred grand because I want to get my first production run done and whatever else. That’s great, but the investors they’re not investing in that production run, they’re investing in what happens to your business later down the road.

21:09 | DG: Yes!

21:10 | KM: The production run is a stepping stone, right?

21:10 | DG: Thank you, Kevin! And so many people are afraid to talk about, well, yeah, we haven’t done that yet. Yeah, but what are you building? Do you think that Elon Musk pitched his true vision? Did he just pitch like the autonomous car when he started or just the vision? No, he’s building. His vision is basically to create a world that is autonomous, that is environmentally friendly, that is basically beyond the moon, a moonshot. So you have to pitch that big, crazy vision. I’m sure that there were people that thought he was absolutely bonkers, and a lot of the big ones are. Think about the pitch for things that we take for granted now. I mean, even think about Peloton. Can you imagine when they first started pitching, yeah, people are going to spend x amount of money to work out at home? Like, why would they do that when they could just go to the gym for a fraction of that? Why? And look at it now. So you need to be able to paint a really big picture.

22:16 | KM: Yeah, and enjoy the process. Because it’s a really interesting one when you start to think about your future. And an easy way to do it is to map it out by the years. A year from now, here’s what I want to be, five years from now, twenty years from now, this is where I want this thing to be. And that’s where if you can kind of just think of it in terms of time, it’s a fun exercise to visualize how this impact that you’re going to create on the world can really change lives and how you’re going to be…

22:41 | DG: Absolutely!

22:41 | KM: …the key in making that happen. And if you can just describe that to an investor, not necessarily to say that they would agree with you or that they may not have their ideas, obviously you want to be open to that, not to say that you might not pivot, as you were saying, Donna a big key to success with a lot of businesses, especially in a crisis, not to say that those things aren’t going to happen, but that your initial plan is a good one. And that’s what an investor really is putting…

23:04 | DG: Look at a company like Theranos, as much as right now, it’s not in a good place. But how was she able to garner so much support? Because she had a vision of completely transforming people’s lives in terms of how blood is taken and measured, and then people that have to consistently test, and it was a beautiful vision. Unfortunately, the execution wasn’t up to that and people are more reticent, and it’s really done a disservice to women founders, which I’m a huge supporter of women founders, and it really irks me that it’s now, oh, well, what about all ? But, at the same time, we can learn something from how she gave that big vision.

23:49 | KM: Well, it’s an amazing thing thatit’s right there in front of you is the fact that it was only storytelling that sold that, it wasn’t the data or the science, because the science wasn’t even there. So just the power…

24:00 | DG: I really wasn’t going to bring that up but yes, I mean it’s a masterclass in storytelling, I have to say.

24:05 | KM: Absolutely. And so to think about hardware startups, you do have a real product. You do have something that’s changing lives in one way or another. So if you can just enable some, and you don’t have to necessarily nail it perfectly, but if you can bring in some of the power of storytelling, it just goes to show you that there’s no cap to how much money you can potentially raise looking at that example is just one, but there are thousands, many good ones, some sketchy ones like that, but there are thousands of examples of the power of storytelling, especially when you add something really great behind it, which is your product, your invention. So you’ve got your cake and eat it too.

24:42 | DG: I just worked with a company last week that has created a mechanical way to treat cancer, not chemical, not biological, mechanical. They have basically taken a Nobel Prize-winning mechanism of a certain molecule that when it’s exposed to light, it starts spinning like a submarine would. And they are able to then use a device that can inject it straight into the area of the cancer and manipulate it to just eradicate the cancer cells completely. I mean, incredible, mind-blowing stuff! And then when I worked with them again, I asked the founder, okay, what’s your motivation here? Where’s your personal story? And of course, there was one. His sister, he lost her at the age of thirty-five to breast cancer. And he watched her go through hell and back with the chemo. And he’s like in an era like this, where we’ve had so much technical progress, he came from a finance background, how is it that this is still the main way that we’re treating cancer? And it set him on his journey. It’s magnificent. Anybody working on hardware or startups in general, you are truly changing people’s lives. You need to own your greatness.

26:03 | KM: Whether it’s a small project or a big one, you’ve obviously come up with this innovation because you saw a pain point or an opportunity, it’s as simple as that so it exists. And I think a lot of hardware startups too, they might be a little bit shy or they say, my product’s not necessarily saving lives, but it doesn’t matter, it’s part of an ecosystem of improving the world around you…

26:20 | DG: Exactly! How many…

26:20 | KM: …improving other users, and you need to just own your piece of that, right?

26:24 | DG: How many devices do we have in our house now that we can’t imagine our lives without, and they’ve made our lives so much better, easier, faster, stronger hassle-free, and freed up time for us? Again, going back to the undeniable value, if you can show the undeniable value and by the way, if you get testimonials from people saying, this is the best thing ever, and they can’t imagine life without it, that’s the stickiness that you want to show as well. So gather your customer or user testimonials, those are extremely powerful in telling your story. They tell the story better than you ever can because they don’t have that, oh my gosh, is it okay to toot my own horn kind of thing? No, they just want to toot the horn from what they love. And they’re not necessarily doing it for a discount or free products, they’re just doing it because you’ve truly made their lives better.

27:10 | KM: That’s a good tip, a good final tip to leave on is the testimonials. I think if you compare your own story, which is something we always advocate to our product startups, you have a story, you came up with this product, there’s always a story behind it. Every one of our clients had some reason, they saw a pain point in the world and they came up with some invention to solve it. A lot of the time it’s related to their own experience, but if not, it definitely is something they were seeing either in their workplace, their family, their friends, or whatnot. So bring that story to light and enhance that with having those qualifiers, which I think is something that you’re talking about in testimonials. A very powerful part of storytelling is providing proof. So you’ve got the vision and all of this back it up with proof, and now you’ve made an ironclad pitch that has both the excitement and the validation behind it, and that’s the two parts that an investor really needs to see to put that hard cold cash on the table.

28:03 | DG: Absolutely!

28:06 | KM: Any other last tips before I let you go, Donna?

28:09 | DG: Yeah. So don’t come in having made up their mind for them. Don’t negotiate with yourself. Don’t come in thinking, oh yeah, I’m at a disadvantage because I’m a hardware startup. No, come in with full confidence that you have the best product possible, you are going to change people’s lives for the better, and you are going to have a product that anyone that has not invested in, five years from now are going to be looking back and kicking themselves for not coming on board. So come in and remember that, even if you got no at the last meeting, don’t bring that no to this meeting. Come in, clean slate, this could be the one. I remember when I was dating, the whole you have to kiss a lot of frogs in order to find the right prince. So, yes, you just have to keep it in. If you go on a date with someone after you’ve had a bad date, and you bring that kind of disgruntled feeling, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. So come in with a clean slate, just think of it as a process, there’s going to be x number of investors that you have to meet and get a no from until you get your yes. And once you get a yes, and you have someone that’s committed, it’s going to make it easier.

29:22 | KM: I love it. It only takes one, yes.

29:23 | DG: And only takes one yes to set the wheels in motion. And also, see how far you can get before you go out and try to raise funding from friends and family, grants, sweat equity, whatever you can do to get people on board and have some kind of proof of concept. And I know that that’s hard when it’s a physical product because it takes a lot of investment and it’s expensive to even create a prototype. But the further along you’ve gotten, it shows them your commitment, and it can really truly show that it works.

29:55 | KM: Great advice. Much appreciated. Donna, if our listeners want to reach out to you to help build their pitch for their product, how can they reach you?

30:05 | DG: So my website is Donna Griffit, D-O-N-N-A G-R-I-F-F-I-T, no h at the end .com. And first of all, on it you’ll find a ton of resources with guides that guide you through creating winning decks, sales decks, pitch to investor pitch decks, all kinds of goodies in there. So it’s like my cookbook. If I were a chef, that would be my recipes that I’ve given away. Some people it will just be helpful to them, others will want to come to my restaurant and experience my cooking of it. So if you do want to reach out you can contact me directly from the site on the contact button, or just reach out to donna@donnagriffit.com. And if you mention Kevin’s podcast, please do, you’ll have a special discount waiting for you.

30:52 | KM: Donna, that’s very generous of you, much appreciated. And of course, as always, I will put all the links into the show notes, so you can just simply click through. Donna, thanks again for all your words of wisdom on this. I appreciate it.

31:01 | DG: Thanks for having me. Good luck to everyone out there and go out and change the world.

31:05 | RS: Thank you. Take care.

31:07 | Voice-over: Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Product Startup podcast. The show that teaches you what it really takes to bring your product to market and turn it into a big success. This podcast series is brought to you by MAKO Design + Invent, the original and leading firm in North America to provide global caliber end-to-end physical consumer product development to startups, inventors, and small product business clients. If you’re looking for product development help on your invention, head over to makodesign.com. That’s M-A-K-O design.com, for a free consultation from one of MAKO Design’s, four design studios from coast to coast. Thanks for listening and see you next time.